") no-repeat center center;background-size:10px 16px;content:' '}@media(min-width:768px){.gBkjJh::before{display:none}}.bmfLVL{margin:0 auto;clear:both}.article-liveblog .bmfLVL{overflow:hidden}.fuZLUV{width:100%;max-width:100%;min-height:400px}@media(min-width:1000px){.iZwHvr .taboola{display:none}}.iZwHvr:has(#taboola-carousel-thumbnails){min-height:426px}.iZwHvr:has(#taboola-mid-article-thumbnails-crime){min-height:405px}@media(min-width:1000px){.iZwHvr:has(#taboola-carousel-thumbnails),.iZwHvr:has(#taboola-mid-article-thumbnails-crime){min-height:0}}.jImJId .tp-container-inner,.jImJId .sc-1suqprf-0{position:relative;box-shadow:0 -22px 16px 22px rgba(255,255,255,0.95)}.jImJId.closed{display:none}.lflWOn{display:block}@media(min-width:768px){.lflWOn{display:block}}.lflWOn:last-child button{margin-right:0}.lflWOn path{stroke:#fff}.jWuEbG button{margin-right:12px}@media(min-width:768px){.jWuEbG{display:none}.jWuEbG button{margin-right:12px}}.hgDTSg{display:flex;position:relative;justify-content:center}@media(min-width:768px){.hgDTSg{justify-content:flex-end;padding-top:12px;margin:0}}.hgDTSg svg{width:60%;height:60%;margin:20%;fill:#fff}.hgDTSg [type='facebook'] svg{width:100%;height:100%;margin:0}.hgDTSg amp-social-share{margin:0 6px;border-radius:50%;background:0;outline:0}.hgDTSg amp-social-share:first-of-type{margin-left:0}.hgDTSg amp-social-share:last-of-type{margin-right:0}@media(min-width:768px){.hgDTSg .share-mobile-only{display:none}}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-bookmark svg{display:block;width:100%;height:100%;margin:0}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-bookmark:hover{opacity:.85}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-facebook{background:#627aac}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-facebook:hover{background:#9cabcb}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-twitter{--color:#4e4e4e;--color-alt:#919191;background:var(--color)}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-twitter:hover{background:var(--color-alt)}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-whatsapp{background:#25d366}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-whatsapp:hover{background:#66e093}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-whatsapp svg{width:70%;height:auto;margin:15%}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-email{background:#ef4757}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-email:hover{background:#f58992}.hgDTSg .amp-social-share-email svg path{stroke:#fff}.kdvWjb{display:flex}.sticky .kdvWjb{flex-direction:column}.bfkmcy{overflow:hidden;height:23px;margin-bottom:8px;border-bottom:0;clear:both}@media(min-width:768px){.bfkmcy{height:25px}}.fczuIa{display:inline-block;flex-shrink:0;margin:0 12px 0 0;font:bold 14px/normal 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}.fczuIa::after{content:':'}.IOUwh{display:inline-block;margin-right:12px;margin-bottom:4px;color:#222;font:normal 14px/1.29 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif;text-decoration:underline}.IOUwh::first-letter {text-transform:capitalize}.izpdPv>p{margin:16px 0}.article-premium .izpdPv>p{line-height:27px}.izpdPv>h2{font-size:21px}.article-climate .izpdPv>h2{color:#ec1a2e}.article-sgi .izpdPv>h2{color:#ec1a2e}.izpdPv>p:first-child{margin-top:0}.izpdPv span:first-child~p:first-of-type{margin-top:0}.hQjaQn{display:flex;position:relative;max-width:100%;min-height:600px;justify-content:center;margin:0 auto;background-color:transparent;clear:both}@media(min-width:1000px){.hQjaQn{min-height:450px}}.teads .hQjaQn{display:block}.hQjaQn [data-mpu]{position:sticky;top:16px}@media(min-width:1000px){.jZcooN{display:none}}.jZcooN[data-mpu1]{min-height:600px}.jZcooN.pb-20{padding-bottom:20px}.hlPMMm{margin:0 0 24px;font:normal 16px/20px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}.euTVax{font:bold 16px/20px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}.jBfdop{overflow:hidden;width:100%;box-sizing:border-box;margin-bottom:16px}@media(min-width:768px){.jBfdop{max-width:634px}}@media(min-width:1250px){.jBfdop{max-width:622px}}.hKRbzg{width:100%;box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px 12px 12px;border-top:8px solid #ec1a2e;background-color:#fde8ea}@media(min-width:768px){.hKRbzg{padding-top:4px;padding-bottom:12px}}.cKIkhp{font:bold 22px/26px 'Indy Serif','Indy Serif Fallback',serif;margin:0 0 12px;text-align:center}@media(min-width:768px){.cKIkhp{font:bold 30px/34px 'Indy Serif','Indy Serif Fallback',serif;letter-spacing:-0.048px;margin-bottom:12px;text-align:left}}.feSJtK{display:block;margin-bottom:12px}@media(min-width:768px){.feSJtK{display:none}}.bErStG{display:flex;width:100%;box-sizing:border-box;align-items:center;justify-content:center;gap:4px;background-color:#fde8ea;color:#ec1a2e}@media(min-width:768px){.bErStG{width:auto;justify-content:flex-start}}.vaVnf{display:block;font:bold 14px/20px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif;text-decoration-line:underline;margin-block:0;text-align:center}.jWuFRk{display:inline-flex;align-items:center;justify-content:center;gap:4px}.jWuFRk:hover .sc-hez36s-5,.jWuFRk:hover .sc-a5wy94-0{color:#ac2a2c}.hKrnEq{font:normal 16px/20px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}.dWUzhG{display:flex;width:100%;flex-direction:column}@media(min-width:768px){.dWUzhG{display:flow-root;gap:24px;transition:margin-bottom .3s ease-in-out}}.bDgIJb{display:flex;width:100%;flex-direction:column;align-items:center;justify-content:center}@media(min-width:768px){.bDgIJb{width:212px;flex-shrink:0;justify-content:flex-start;margin-left:24px;float:right}}.EYumw{display:none;flex-direction:row;align-items:center;justify-content:center;gap:8px;margin-top:8px}@media(min-width:768px){.EYumw{display:flex;margin-top:12px}}.kCOwPr{display:flex;width:100%;align-items:center;justify-content:center;gap:8px;margin-top:8px;margin-bottom:12px}@media(min-width:768px){.kCOwPr{display:none}}.iGXncB{display:flex;overflow:hidden;height:0;flex-direction:column;gap:8px;opacity:0;transition:all .3s ease-in-out}@media(min-width:768px){.iGXncB{display:flex;position:relative;width:auto;height:40px;order:-1;opacity:1;transition-behavior:allow-discrete}.iGXncB::after{--fade-from:rgba(253,232,234,0);--fade-to:#fde8ea;position:absolute;bottom:0;left:0;z-index:1;width:100%;height:40px;background-image:linear-gradient(to bottom,var(--fade-from),var(--fade-to));content:'';opacity:1;transition:opacity 150ms ease-out}}@media(min-width:768px){.doTReP{order:-1}}.ggPDxB{display:none;padding-top:8px;margin-top:16px;border-top:1px solid #919191}@media(max-width:767px){.ggPDxB{display:flex}}.gibhIT{display:none}@media(min-width:768px){.gibhIT{display:flex;position:relative;align-items:flex-start;margin-top:12px}}.dxwzhm{display:flex;min-height:600px;justify-content:center}@media(min-width:1000px){.dxwzhm{min-height:450px}}.gHNATZ{min-height:600px}@media(min-width:1000px){.gHNATZ{min-height:450px}}.gHNATZ.mobile-only{display:block}@media(min-width:1000px){.gHNATZ.mobile-only{display:none}}.gHNATZ.desktop-only{display:none}@media(min-width:1000px){.gHNATZ.desktop-only{display:block;margin-bottom:16px}}.gHNATZ.desktop-only+p{margin-top:0}.gHNATZ .third-party-ad{position:sticky;top:16px}.blOrrc{width:100%;flex-grow:1}.blOrrc .amp-article-content[amp-access][amp-access-hide]{display:block;overflow:hidden;max-height:360px}.blOrrc .amp-article-content[amp-access][amp-access-hide] .social-share{display:none}.blOrrc .amp-article-content[amp-access][amp-access-hide].show-all-content{max-height:100%}@media(max-width:594px){.blOrrc .amp-article-content[amp-access][amp-access-hide]{max-height:530px}}.blOrrc .amp-newsletter-reg-gate{position:relative;left:-12px;width:calc(100% + 24px)}.blOrrc .social-share{width:100%;padding-top:10px;padding-bottom:20px}@media(min-width:768px){.blOrrc .social-share{justify-content:flex-start}}.blOrrc .social-share.sticky{display:none}@media(min-width:1000px){.blOrrc .social-share.sticky{display:flex;position:sticky;top:14px;width:34px;flex-direction:column;margin-top:0;margin-left:-25%;float:left}.blOrrc .social-share.sticky amp-social-share,.blOrrc .social-share.sticky .sc-mgcah7-0{margin:0 0 16px}.article-feature-video .blOrrc .social-share.sticky{margin-top:0}.article-feature:not(.article-feature-video) .blOrrc .social-share.sticky{margin-top:35%}}.blOrrc.sponsored-article img,.blOrrc.sponsored-article video{width:100%;max-width:602px;height:auto}.blOrrc.sponsored-article iframe{max-width:602px;max-height:400px}.blOrrc .under-article-prompt-donations{padding-bottom:8px;margin-top:-3px}.blOrrc .big-letter{--color:#222;display:flex;position:relative;width:0;height:0;align-items:center;justify-content:center;padding:40px;margin-top:22px;margin-right:12px;border:1px solid var(--color);float:left;font:normal 52px/1 'Indy Serif','Indy Serif Fallback',serif;text-transform:uppercase}.blOrrc .big-letter:first-child{margin-top:6px}.blOrrc .big-letter::before{position:absolute;top:0;left:0;width:100%;height:100%;box-sizing:border-box;border:1px solid var(--color);border-radius:50%;content:''}.blOrrc #taboola-below-article-1{min-height:2350px}@media(min-width:768px){.blOrrc #taboola-below-article-1{min-height:3370px}}.blOrrc #taboola-below-article-1-split-num-1{min-height:130px}@media(min-width:768px){.blOrrc #taboola-below-article-1-split-num-1{min-height:415px}}.blOrrc .sc-fwko30-0+.sc-1xtsh2b-0{margin-top:-16px}@media(min-width:768px){.blOrrc{max-width:636px;margin:0}}@media(min-width:1000px){.blOrrc{max-width:624px;margin:0}.blOrrc.subscribed{max-width:636px}}@media(max-width:999px){.blOrrc{padding-right:0}.blOrrc .under-article-prompt-donations{margin-top:-18px}}.kvSKnI{display:flex;flex-wrap:wrap;justify-content:flex-start;margin-bottom:8px;color:#646464;font:normal 16px/20px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}@media(min-width:768px){.kvSKnI{width:70%;align-items:center;justify-content:flex-start;margin-bottom:0;font:normal 16px/24px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}}@media(min-width:1000px){.kvSKnI{width:70%;margin-bottom:0}}.eXEVFg{display:flex;height:20px;margin:0 12px 8px 0}.article-voices .eXEVFg{height:auto}@media(min-width:425px){.article-voices .eXEVFg{height:20px}}.eXEVFg::before{display:inline-block;align-self:center;margin-top:1px;margin-right:12px;content:'\2022';transform:scale(1.5)}.eXEVFg:first-child::before{content:none}@media(min-width:768px){.eXEVFg{height:24px;margin-bottom:0}.eXEVFg::before{margin-top:2px}}.eXEVFg time{display:block}.eXEVFg time::first-letter {text-transform:capitalize}.eUdsoy{color:#fff}.jGlqRq{display:inline-block;margin:0 12px 8px 0;color:#ef4757;font:bold 16px/20px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif;letter-spacing:-0.5px}.jGlqRq:hover,.jGlqRq:active{color:#f58992}@media(min-width:768px){.jGlqRq{margin-bottom:0}}.hBKmwt{margin:0 12px 8px -8px}@media(min-width:768px){.hBKmwt{margin-bottom:0}}.cBhCUD{color:#fff}.enHDwq{margin:0 4px 8px 0}.enHDwq::before{display:inline-block;margin-top:2px;margin-right:12px;color:#646464;content:'\2022';transform:scale(1.5)}.enHDwq:first-child::before{display:none}@media(min-width:768px){.enHDwq{margin-bottom:0}}.jmYqVV::before{color:#fff}.hfnwMY{display:flex;justify-content:flex-start;padding:0;margin:0 0 16px}@media(min-width:768px){.hfnwMY{display:flex;width:30%;align-items:center;justify-content:flex-end;margin:0}}@media(min-width:1000px){.hfnwMY{width:30%}}.hrDjjf{padding-top:0;border-top:0;border-bottom:0}@media(min-width:768px){.hrDjjf{display:flex;flex-flow:row wrap;padding-bottom:16px}.hrDjjf .sc-1qz44j0-0{order:1}.hrDjjf .sc-1qz44j0-10{order:2}}@media(min-width:1000px){.hrDjjf{flex-direction:row}}.dnLbAr{padding:16px 12px 12px;text-align:left;font:bold 14px/18px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}@media(min-width:768px){.dnLbAr{padding:16px 16px 12px}}.article-infact .dnLbAr{padding:16px 0}@media(min-width:1000px){.dnLbAr{padding:24px 0 19px}.article-feature .dnLbAr{max-width:968px;margin:0 auto}}.dnLbAr a{color:#fff}.dnLbAr a:hover{color:#f58992}.dnLbAr a:hover::after{color:#fff}.dnLbAr a::after{margin-right:4px;margin-left:4px;content:'>'}.dnLbAr a:last-child::after{display:none}.azcVx{margin:0 0 20px;letter-spacing:0}.VFZbw{margin:0;color:#646464;font:normal 16px/20px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}@media(min-width:768px){.VFZbw{font:normal 18px/22px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}}@media(min-width:1000px){.VFZbw{font:normal 20px/24px 'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif}}.VFZbw p{font:inherit}.article-feature .VFZbw a{font-weight:bold}.hsJCLD{max-width:968px;margin:0 auto;background:#222}@media(min-width:1000px){.hsJCLD{padding:0 16px}.parallax .hsJCLD{max-width:1240px}}.bJjAgi{font:bold 32px/36px 'Indy Serif','Indy Serif Fallback',serif;letter-spacing:-0.0156em}@media(min-width:768px){.bJjAgi{font:bold 44px/48px 'Indy Serif','Indy Serif Fallback',serif;letter-spacing:-0.0113em}}@media(min-width:1000px){.bJjAgi{font:bold 54px/58px 'Indy Serif','Indy Serif Fallback',serif;letter-spacing:-0.0092em}}.hZFQIi{background:#222}.hZFQIi .sc-qvufca-1{max-width:968px;background:#222}.hZFQIi .sc-qvufca-0{margin:0}@media(max-width:999px){.hZFQIi .sc-qvufca-0{margin:0 12px 0}}.hZFQIi .sc-22qwnu-0,.hZFQIi .sc-22qwnu-0 a{color:#fff}.hZFQIi .sc-qvufca-2,.hZFQIi .sc-aeekvc-0{color:#fff}.hZFQIi .sc-qvufca-2{margin:0 0 20px}.hZFQIi .sc-aeekvc-0{margin-bottom:16px}@keyframes slidedown-video{from{transform:translateY(-100%)}to{transform:translateY(0)}}@keyframes slideup-video{from{transform:translateY(200%)}to{transform:translateY(0)}}.ghXxSp .video-top-container-inner{position:relative}.ghXxSp .video-popout-close{display:none}.ghXxSp .video-hero-wrapper-inner{display:block}.ghXxSp .video-hero-video{width:100%;margin:0;transition:height .2s}.ghXxSp .video-hero-wrapper.sticky-video{position:fixed;top:95px;width:400px;margin-left:-332px;transition:margin-left .3s,top .3s .1s}.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video{position:static;right:0;left:auto;width:100%}.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video.liveblog{margin-left:-12px}@media(min-width:768px){.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video{position:absolute;width:400px}}@media(min-width:1000px){.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video{top:94px;right:-56px}.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video.liveblog{right:-400px}}.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video .video-sticky-video{position:fixed;top:0;left:auto;z-index:9;width:100%;background-color:#fff;box-shadow:0 0 40px 10px rgba(0,0,0,0.5)}@media(min-width:768px){.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video .video-sticky-video{width:400px;animation:slidedown-video .4s}}@media(min-width:1000px){.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-hero-video .video-sticky-video{top:auto;bottom:0;animation:slideup-video .4s}}.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-popout-close{display:none;width:100%;box-sizing:border-box;align-items:center;justify-content:flex-end;padding:4px 8px 3px;color:#222;cursor:pointer;font-family:'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:14px}@media(min-width:1000px){.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-popout-close{justify-content:flex-start}}.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-popout-close::after{display:flex;align-items:center;padding-left:4px;content:'\2715';font-size:12px}.ghXxSp .video-top-container.video.sticky:not(.closed) .video-popout-close.shown{display:flex}.rdSkV{max-width:100%}.DduFK{position:relative}.hBOwuD{position:relative;width:100%;padding-top:56.25%;background:#000}.fSyNsa{display:flex;position:absolute;top:0;left:0;width:100%;height:100%;align-items:center;justify-content:center}.cZXjIc{width:10%}.bFEGho.fullscreen{position:fixed;top:0;left:0;z-index:3000000000;width:100%;height:100%;background:#000}.bFEGho .closebtn{display:none;position:absolute;top:0;right:0;width:100px;height:100px}.bFEGho .closebtn.show{display:block}.bFEGho .btn{position:absolute;top:5px;right:5px;width:25px;height:25px;color:#fff;font-family:helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:20px;line-height:25px;text-align:center}.JCJLP{max-width:100%;clear:both}.dyGKzS{--bleed:12px;display:flex;box-sizing:border-box;flex-direction:row;gap:32px;padding:16px var(--bleed);background-color:#fff}.article-liveblog .dyGKzS{background-color:#f7f7f7}@media(min-width:768px){.dyGKzS{--bleed:0;max-width:1000px;margin:0 auto}}@media(min-width:1000px){.dyGKzS{--bleed:16px;max-width:1000px;padding:var(--bleed)}}.gIldS{overflow:hidden;height:0;color:transparent}.kFPmfF{max-width:100%;margin:0 0 20px}.kFPmfF.sticky{position:sticky;top:16px}.iaRZct{min-height:600px}.iaRZct #mpu1{position:sticky;top:16px}.bFiDnI{min-height:250px}.jAzEot{max-width:100%}.eDScvc{margin:0 0 6px;color:#646464;font-family:'Indy Sans','Indy Sans Fallback',sans-serif;font-size:15px}.CmSgF{margin:0 0 12px}.lbFVDq{height:380px}.bsSHYO{width:100%;height:51px}.bjKtIv{margin-bottom:16px;border-bottom:1px solid #919191}.jLzsCV{margin-bottom:16px}.jLzsCV [role='listitem']{position:relative;margin-bottom:12px;border-bottom:1px solid #d3d3d3}.jLzsCV [role='listitem'] .sc-u4n1j-0{display:flex;position:absolute;bottom:16px;left:10px;width:32px;height:32px;align-items:center;justify-content:center;border-radius:50%;background-color:#ec1a2e}.jLzsCV [role='listitem'] .sc-u4n1j-0>svg{width:90%;fill:#fff;stroke:transparent}.jLzsCV [role='listitem']:first-child{display:block;padding-bottom:0;margin-bottom:12px}.jLzsCV [role='listitem']:first-child .sc-u4n1j-0{top:-15px;bottom:auto;left:12px;width:35px;height:35px}.jLzsCV [role='listitem']:first-child>*:first-child{display:block;width:100%;height:205px}.jLzsCV [role='listitem']:first-child>*:last-child{position:absolute;bottom:0;width:100%;padding:28px 12px 12px;background:linear-gradient(to top,#222 50%,rgba(34,34,34,0.9) 100%) no-repeat;color:#fff;font-size:17px;font-weight:bold}.jLzsCV [role='listitem']:last-child{margin-bottom:0;border-bottom:0 none}.kNZMQb{min-height:1924px}@media(max-width:767px){.kNZMQb{display:none}}.iFeFcz{width:308px}.iFeFcz.hidden{display:none}@media(max-width:999px){.iFeFcz{display:none}}.article-liveblog .fbWdwj{background-color:#f7f7f7}.eFgmkR{justify-content:center}.cvujVr{justify-content:center}
Tech Elon Musk claims he sought to sell Tesla to Apple in 2017 Entrepreneur says Tim Cook refused to meet with him
Elon Musk unveils 'bulletproof truck' that immediately smashes Your support helps us to tell the story From reproductive rights to climate change to Big Tech, The Independent is on the ground when the story is developing. Whether it's investigating the financials of Elon Musk's pro-Trump PAC or producing our latest documentary, 'The A Word', which shines a light on the American women fighting for reproductive rights, we know how important it is to parse out the facts from the messaging.
At such a critical moment in US history, we need reporters on the ground. Your donation allows us to keep sending journalists to speak to both sides of the story.
The Independent is trusted by Americans across the entire political spectrum. And unlike many other quality news outlets, we choose not to lock Americans out of our reporting and analysis with paywalls. We believe quality journalism should be available to everyone, paid for by those who can afford it.
Your support makes all the difference. Close Read more Elon Musk says he tried to sell Tesla to Apple in 2017 for one-tenth of its current value but CEO Tim Cook “refused” to meet with him.
The South African-born entrepreneur revealed on Twitter that he wanted to unload the electric car company “during the darkest days” of its development of the Model 3.
He made his comments just a day after it was reported that Apple planned on producing its own electric car by 2024.
But Mr Musk claimed that he could not even get a meeting with the tech giant’s boss to discuss a potential deal for Tesla.
“During the darkest days of the Model 3 program, I reached out to Tim Cook to discuss the possibility of Apple acquiring Tesla (for 1/10 of our current value). He refused to take the meeting,” tweeted Mr Musk.
He has previously said that Tesla was “single-digit weeks” away from collapse in 2017 as he sank all the company’s resources into the Model 3.
Mr Musk is now the world’s second richest man with a personal fortune of $155bn after the electric car company’s worth skyrocketed in 2020 to more than $600bn.
Apple has again has set its sights on releasing an Apple-branded passenger car with the help of “breakthrough” battery technology, reported Reuters on Monday.
The Silicon Valley giant first decided to produce a car back in 2014 but its Project Titan has made slow progress since then.
Now Apple could use a new lithium iron phosphate battery design that could “radically” reduce the cost and increase the car’s range, said a person familiar with the design.
But Mr Musk pointed out on Twitter that Tesla was already using that kind of battery technology in some of the cars it is producing in its factory in China.
“Strange, if true,” he tweeted.
Thank you for registering Please refresh the page or navigate to another page on the site to be automatically logged in Please refresh your browser to be logged in
Join our commenting forum
Join thought-provoking conversations, follow other Independent readers and see their replies
Comments